Graham Priest on Buddhism and logic

Buddhism47gfby Massimo Pigliucci

Graham Priest is a colleague of mine at City University of New York’s Graduate Center, a world renowned expert in logic, a Buddhist connoisseur, and an all-around nice guy [1]. So I always pay attention to what he says or writes. Recently he published a piece in Aeon magazine [2] entitled “Beyond true and false: Buddhist philosophy is full of contradictions. Now modern logic is learning why that might be a good thing.” I approached it with trepidation, for a variety of reasons. To begin with, I am weary of attempts at reading things into Buddhism or other Asian traditions of thought that are clearly not there (the most egregious example being the “documentary” What The Bleep Do We Know?, and the most frustrating one the infamous The Tao of Physics, by Fritjof Capra). But I quickly reassured myself because I knew Graham would do better than that.

Second, Graham knows a lot more than I do about both logic and Buddhism (especially the latter), so surely I was going to learn new things about both topics and, more crucially, how they are related to each other. The problem is that I ended up learning and appreciating more about logic, not so much about Buddhism, and very little about their congruence. Hence this essay.

I am going to follow Graham’s exposition pretty closely, and will of course invite him to comment on my take at his pleasure. Broadly speaking, my thesis is that the parallels that Graham sees between logic and Buddhism are more superficial than he understands them to be and, more importantly, that Buddhism as presented in his essay, is indeed a type of mysticism, not a philosophy, which means that logic (and, consequently, argumentation) are besides the point. Moreover, I will argue that even if the parallels with logic run as deep as Graham maintains, Buddhism would still face the issue — fundamental in any philosophy — of whether what it says is true of the world or not, an issue that no mystical tradition is actually equipped to handle properly.

Graham’s essay begins with the complaint that many Western philosophers dismiss Buddhism as mysticism. While he claims this is due to ignorance and incomprehension, the point to keep in mind is that such opening clearly marks the charge of “mysticism” as an important motivator behind his whole essay. Keep this in mind, because it will come in handy later on.

An early example, in Graham’s piece, of what so many W-philosophers are complaining about is this famous saying by Buddhist thinker Nagarjun: “The nature of things is to have no nature; it is their non-nature that is their nature. For they have only one nature: no-nature.” At first glance, I do share the puzzlement of my W-colleagues, but I am certainly willing to let Graham help me to clear the fog of my incomprehension.

He pins much of the alleged disdain toward Buddhism to W-philosophers’ aversion to contradictions, which is rooted, of course, in Aristotelian logic, and particularly in two of its pillars: the principle of non contradiction (contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time) and the law of the excluded middle (either something is true or it isn’t, no third option available) [3].

Graham invites his readers to go back to the 5th Century BCE in India, when Buddhism was just beginning, and when a principle known as catuskoti (“four corners”) was being formulated. Here is how he explains it: “[catuskoti] insists that there are four possibilities regarding any statement: it might be true (and true only), false (and false only), both true and false, or neither true nor false.” The literature on this developed because of answers that the Buddha gave to questions such as what happens to enlightened people when they die. The Buddha, apparently, often simply refused to answer the question at all (wisely, I might add); but at other times Buddhist texts seem to suggest that none of the four catuskoti actually provides an answer, and that therefore there was a problem to be handled. Apparently, things got a bit more clear with the second most important Buddhist thinker of all time, 2nd Century CE’s Nagarjuna, who espoused the view that things are “empty,” which Graham tells us doesn’t mean non-existent, but rather that they are because they relate to other things. Nagarjuna spends time discussing the four catuskoti and concludes that there are instances — such as the question of what happens to an enlightened person after he dies — that are not covered by any of those cases.

Graham himself refers to Nagarjuna’s writings as “cryptic,” and to his reasoning as “opaque,” which are both highly irritating characteristics of some Western (think Heidegger!) and Eastern philosophies, and which I really wish people stopped defending or taking for granted and began to seriously criticize. At any rate, here is Graham’s summary of Nagarjuna’s position:

“The language we use frames our conventional reality (our Lebenswelt, as it is called in the German phenomenological tradition). Beneath that there is an ultimate reality, such as the condition of the enlightened dead person. One can experience this directly in certain meditative states, but one cannot describe it. To say anything about it would merely succeed in making it part of our conventional reality; it is, therefore, ineffable. In particular, one cannot describe it by using any of the four possibilities furnished by the catuskoti.”

[Notice the reference to German phenomenology, more on this in a minute.]

This amounts to a sort of catuskoti+, characterized by the four initial possibilities plus a fifth case standing for ineffability. Bear with me for a few more minutes, there’s going to be a pay off.

So far, W-philosophers would have two sources of trouble: the catuskoti is bad enough, because it violates both non-contradiction and excluded middle; but now Buddhists are talking about ineffable things, too! The thing about the ineffable is that it is defined as something of which one cannot talk, it is by definition beyond words. And yet, Nagarjuna and his followers gingerly go on telling us things about the alleged ineffable! In particular, in Graham’s rendition, they tell us why some things are ineffable, even though they cannot comment on the things-in-themselves.

Okay, if you are even superficially familiar with Western philosophy, you might have recognized parallels — which Graham duly notes, of course — with Kant, or even Heidegger. Kant makes a distinction between the phenomenal world, to which we have access through our senses and reason, and the noumenal one, which is in a sense ineffable, but about which we can tell why it is so. Heidegger, much more bizarrely and certainly more obscurely, wrote a big book about Being and then told everyone that you can’t really say anything about Being.

Graham says that all of this is a contradiction, and one that should not actually worry W-philosophers, regardless of whether they are contemplating Kant, Heidegger or Buddhism: “you can’t explain why something is ineffable without talking about it. That’s a plain contradiction: talking of the ineffable.”

I think this is a questionable move. I don’t think there is any real contradiction at play here. Let me take the case of Kant in particular, since it is by far the least obscurely put. A reasonable retelling of the story, I suspect, is that Kant identified an epistemically inaccessible zone, one the content of which we cannot know. But we can observe the contours of such zone, the epistemic perimeter, if you will, from the outside. Imagine a physical analogy: you use Google map and find out that a certain location on it, say Dick Cheney’s house, is missing from it. There is a large blacked out area around it, to which you have no access. There is no contradiction in a) acknowledging that you can’t say anything about what is inside that geographical black hole while b) you can say something about it, for instance that it exists, and that it has a certain perimeter.

What I have not told you so far is that Graham had in the meantime weaved a fascinating series of analogies between the contradictions of Buddhism and developments in logic since Aristotle. We are therefore treated to a breathtaking, and truly enlightening, overview of things like the distinction between a relation and a function in mathematics (the later relates objects in a one-to-one fashion, the former in a one-to-many); relevance logic (a non-classical system designed to deal with paradoxes) [4]; the Russell paradox (concerning the set of all the sets that are not members of themselves) [5]; many-valued logic (invented by Polish logician Jan Łukasiewicz in the 1920s to deal with the contingency of statements about the future, which are strictly speaking neither true nor false, as Aristotle himself recognized) [6]; and plurivalent logic (which deals with paradoxes originating from self-referential sentences, and was co-invented by Graham himself) [7]. It’s a veritable tour de force, and it’s worth every minute of your (focused!) attention.

But what do we get out of all of this? Graham himself acknowledges that all these developments in logic, which largely took place within the Western tradition, occurred entirely independently of Buddhism. There was pretty much no cultural cross-fertilization, going either way. That, in itself, is not a problem: a reasonable interpretation of what happened is that Western logicians and Buddhist thinkers arrived at the same conclusions independently of each other.

Except that that strikes me as a forced analysis of what is going on. Relevance logic, many-valued logic, various treatments of paradoxes, and so forth were explicitly tackled by Western philosophers as logical problems, and confronted by means of rigorously formal analysis and carefully developed arguments. This is not at all the impression of Buddhism that I get from reading Graham (and from my intro-level familiarity with Buddhism outside of taking Graham as a source [8]). Instead, Buddhist thinkers clearly arrived at their formulations by non-philosophical, and more precisely, mystical, means.

Graham seems to recognize this when he says: “Call it mysticism if you want; the label has little enough meaning. But whatever you call it, it is rife in great philosophy — Eastern and Western.” I beg to differ. It may be great mysticism (if one is inclined to take on board this approach to truth and knowledge), but not great philosophy. The term “philosophy,” in my book (and I’m sure Graham will disagree) is best reserved for the sort of argument-cum-logic approach developed by the pre-Socratics and their immediate successors (who, after all, introduced the very word!), and to confuse it with other modes of thought is, well, confusing.

This, by the way, isn’t a West-East thing at all. Graham squarely numbers Heidegger among the “call it mysticism if you want” group, which is why I really don’t like Heidegger: he may have something interesting or profound to say (unlike, say, Derrida), but if he doesn’t bother to say it in clear and logically cogent ways, the hell with it, as far as I’m concerned. (Graham also includes Wittgenstein in this group, though in his case things are more complex, both because of his famous first and second philosophical phases throughout his life, and because even his second phase is crystal clear compared to Heidegger!) And on the other side of the geographical divide we have the vibrant tradition of Indian logic and epistemology [9] which certainly counts as philosophy, and which paralleled many of the developments of the Western tradition, arriving at several of the same conclusions.

Now, I realize that the word “mysticism” almost automatically carries a negative connotation in the West (thanks, Deepak Chopra!), and I must confess to being deeply mistrustful of mystical insights myself. But if by mysticism we simply mean an intuitive, rather than a discursive, approach to thinking about the nature of reality, by all means, bring your intuitions to bear on whatever it is we are discussing and let’s hash it out. Still, this points to a major disanalogy between Western (and Indian!) logic and Buddhism as presented by Graham’s attempt to interweave them: in logic we are concerned with the formal properties of hypothetical systems, not with the way the world is. Logic and math do often have surprisingly insightful things to say about reality, but this isn’t their point. Logicians in particular are concerned with the properties inherent in the structure of sentences, not in their content — which is why logic texts read like endless streams of “if p then q; p; therefore q,” where it simply doesn’t matter what the damned p and q actually represent.

That is most definitely not the case for metaphysicians concerned with the noumenal vs phenomenal world (Kant), with Being (Heidegger) or for Buddhist disciples concerned with what will happen to them if they die after achieving enlightenment. Graham suggests that Nagarjuna’s problem with the ineffable is analogous to the Hungarian mathematician Julius König’s work on ordinals and what happens after we have been through all finite numbers (which is an infinite set, of course). I don’t feel comfortable with that analogy, precisely because questions about ordinals are questions about logical-mathematical objects, while Nagarjuna’s (and Kant’s, and Heidegger’s) attempt is at saying something about the world as it is. Not the same thing.

Graham draws two conclusions at the end of his must-read essay:

“Mathematical techniques often find unexpected applications. Group theory was developed in the 19th century to chart the commonality of various mathematical structures. It found an application in physics in the 20th century, notably in connection with the Special Theory of Relativity. Similarly, those who developed the logical techniques described above had no idea of the Buddhist applications, and would, I am sure, have been very surprised by them.”

Yes to almost all of the above, except that I see a glaring difference between applying logic to the theory of relativity and retrofitting it to a mystical tradition.

“The second lesson is quite different and more striking. Buddhist thought, and Asian thought in general, has often been written off by Western philosophers. How can contradictions be true? What’s all this talk of ineffability? This is all nonsense. The constructions I have described show how to make precise mathematical sense of the Buddhist views. This does not, of course, show that they are true. That’s a different matter. But it does show that these ideas can be made as logically rigorous and coherent as ideas can be.”

Well, no. To begin with, whether Buddhist views are true is precisely the matter. Logic and math cannot be false, unless one has made a mistake in the formalism. And they cannot be false precisely because they do not deal with statements concerning the world. The same courtesy cannot be extended to any form of mysticism, philosophy or science, for that matter.

As for Buddhist ideas being just as rigorous as Western logic and math, again, no. The rigor in the latter comes out of the ability to very precisely spell out formalism, build arguments and proofs, defend or abandon axioms, and so on. Nothing of the kind appears to be the case within Buddhist tradition, though again I’m certainly more than willing to be corrected (with detailed examples?) by Graham, who knows that tradition much better than I.

Graham’s parting shot is this: “As the Buddha may or may not have said (or both, or neither): ‘There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth: not going all the way, and not starting.’” Being conscious of the hubris of improving on the Buddha, I’d add a third: one can get started on the wrong path.

_____

Massimo Pigliucci is a biologist and philosopher at the City University of New York. His main interests are in the philosophy of science and pseudoscience. He is the editor-in-chief of Scientia Salon, and his latest book (co-edited with Maarten Boudry) is Philosophy of Pseudoscience: Reconsidering the Demarcation Problem (Chicago Press).

[1] He has also been, more than once, on my Rationally Speaking podcast, to talk about logic and Buddhism.

[2] Beyond true and false: Buddhist philosophy is full of contradictions. Now modern logic is learning why that might be a good thing, by G. Priest, Aeon, 5 May 2014.

[3] The third fundamental principle of classical logic is the law of identity: each thing is the same with itself and different from another.

[4] Relevance Logic, by E. Mares, Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

[5] Russell’s Paradox, by A.D. Irvine and H. Deutsch, SEP.

[6] Many-Valued Logic, by S. Gottwald, SEP.

[7] Plurivalent Logics, by G. Priest, Australasian Journal of Logic, vol 11, 2014.

[8] See the following SEP entries: Buddha, by M. Siderits; Madhyamaka, by R. Hayes; The Kyoto School, by B.W. Davis; Japanese Zen Buddhist Philosophy, by S. Nagatomo.

[9] See these SEP entries: Logic in Classical Indian Philosophy, by B. Gillon; Epistemology in Classical Indian Philosophy, by S. Phillips.

104 thoughts on “Graham Priest on Buddhism and logic

  1. Hi Massimo,

    I enjoyed both your and Graham’s articles, and perhaps in keeping with the subject matter I found myself tolerating contradiction by agreeing with both!

    I agree with you that Buddhists were not developing a logical system. I think they’re just content to tolerate contradiction in a way that Western philosophers were not.

    But I agree with Graham that they may have been onto something. They didn’t develop it into a formal system, but it is quite reasonable, I feel, to suppose that they intuited something of the formal logics Graham discusses.

    I quite like the claim that the nature of things is to have no nature. Like Graham, I could be accused of reading too much into the mystical tradition, but this strikes me as not so unlike the claims of Tegmark, Ladyman and Ross in the MUH or OSR that all there is is mathematics or relations. There are no “things” the mathematics describes — the mathematics is the thing, and it fits into my view that existence is at best an ambiguous and at worst an incoherent concept.

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  2. Hi Massimo,

    Very nice observations. but I think a lot depends on your premise that math/logic isn’t about the world. Denying that premise doesn’t amount to mysticism unless you’re willing to say that fregean logical realism is mysticism, for example. It sounds implausible to rule out platonism as mysticism from the start. If you don’t do that, then you give a lot of room for Priest to argue that accepting logic and math may make us accept some metaphysical propositions that buddhism would also make us accept, in a way that we can see the buddhist versions as less precise formulations of those metaphysical propositions. I mean, if you can’t rule out metaphysical platonism as mysticism in the same way that buddhism would be mysticism, then you can’t dismiss buddhism as a theory about the world to be made precise by some logical machinery.

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  3. Hi,

    I think about nunameable things in a similar way to you. I have always thought that naming and reference paradoxes are due to an ambiguity in the way we use “name” and “reference”.

    For example we could say that “2”, “10b” and ” {{ }, {{ }}}” are equivalent, but can “the even prime number” or “the lowest prime number” be said to be exactly equivalent to those or is it a different kind of reference.

    For example the first three references defined the existence and uniqueness of the number, whereas “the even prime number” does not.

    I could refer to “the smallest even prime number greater than one” and it is a perfectly good reference but it can be proved that such an entity does not exist, similarly with “the smallest positive real number”

    So when I say that I can refer to the smallest ordinal number that cannot be referred to then I think I am simply using reference in a slightly different way rather than instantiating a contradiction.

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  4. I thought the point of Graham Priest’s essay was to show that Buddhist thought is not just nonsense incommensurable with Western thinking, but representative of a different approach to certain matters that also arise within Western thinking. That is, Westerners who complain that the Buddhists are just spewing unstructured nonsense have not paid enough attention to either tradition. And that seems pretty reasonable to me.

    Whether it’s properly called “mysticism” or “philosophy” I think is just a matter of how one puts these ideas to use. I’m comfortable saying that deployment of these logics for analytical purposes is probably better called “philosophy,” while deployment for psychological or existential purposes is fairly “mysticism.” Sure, asserting that “the nature of things is to have no nature” is not an analytical approach to the world, but expressions in that mode are quite useful (in my experience) for inducing a mental state of calmness, or relieving existential angst, or just challenging a hardened dogma—which can then lead to more fruitful work in other modes, be they creative, analytical, or otherwise. That is, I am inclined to say that these ideas describe the world truly, in the sense of being instrumentally useful, in two different ways: for modeling observable phenomena (“philosophy”), or for prompting useful mental states (“mysticism”).

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  5. I don’t think it is a matter of reading too much into the mystical tradition, more that most mystical traditions from time to time throw up something that turns out to be mathematically or scientifically useful or at least interesting.

    I suppose that is the difference between ancient mystical traditions and modern ones. Ancient mystical traditions were not deliberately trying to make things mysterious and spooky, they were genuinely trying to work out how things were and every now and then they would come up with the goods.

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  6. Massimo – If you wish to understand Buddhism, the logic of Buddhist doctrine, Nagarjuna’s argument against positive metaphysical positions or mysticism, then Graham Priest is not your man. He see contradictions in Buddhism. This is a terrible misunderstanding. Nagarjuna proves by the use of ordinary dialectic logic that there are no contradiction in the world and thus none in Buddhist doctrine. I would even go so far as to say that GP does not understand ordinary logic. If he did, he would see that the contradictions he speaks of are NOT true contradictions according to Aristotle.

    This may be the most muddled essay about Buddhism that I’ve ever seen. There is no necessary choice between mysticism and philosophy,. They both lead to the same place. You can see it as two approaches, the experimental and the theoretical. Bear in mind that Taoism was a philosophy for 500 years before it became a religion, and it was always mysticism. Of course Buddhism is mysticism. And it is a religion. And of course it is a philosophy. Nagarjuna gave it a philosophical foundation. It is what he is famous for.

    At present I am in a small dispute with the editors at the Stanford Encyclopaedia on this very issue. It is as if everybody thinks Nagarjuna was a blithering idiot and that no Buddhist ever had a brain.

    Follow Priest and you will end up with the paradoxical universe of Melhuish and the true contradictions of ‘dialethism’. For a reasonable universe that obeys the laws of thought and is free of contradictions we would need to follow Nagarjuna.

    Generally speaking, for a good explanation of Buddhism it would be best to consult more widely that with one of its most ardent critics. To mention my blog would be spam, but I dispose of Priest’s view totally.

    This sort of essay is enough to make my blood boil. It’s not as if there is no literature.

    Nagarjuna proves that all positive metaphysical positions are logically absurd. For Buddhism and more generally for mysticism, nondualism or the perennial philosophy, they must all be rejected. This remains the only workable solution for metaphysics that has ever been proposed. To dismiss it on the basis of an unsympathetic misinterpretation would be madness.

    This allergy to mysticism but love for discursive philosophy is ridiculous. It’s like being in favour of theoretical physics but against doing any experiments.

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  7. “An early example, in Graham’s piece, of what so many W-philosophers are complaining about is this famous saying by Buddhist thinker Nagarjun: “The nature of things is to have no nature; it is their non-nature that is their nature. For they have only one nature: no-nature.” At first glance, I do share the puzzlement of my W-colleagues, but I am certainly willing to let Graham help me to clear the fog of my incomprehension.”

    Though I tend to agree, the Buddhist tradition is much older and less subject to formal revision because it is less institutionalized like western religion and western science. However W-Science is built around the nature of appearance and the true nature of physical reality so we can say the human brains of the east and the human brains of the west share the same tradition of thinking but just a matter of difference of formalized logical refinement which is the confusion Graham Priest is addressing.

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  8. I’m sympathetic to Peter Wall’s statements, particularly those in his first paragraph. I think Massimo’s statement, “But what do we get out of all of this?” applies equally well to his own points.

    To my mind, Massimo makes demands of Priest that go beyond his rather modest intent in writing his piece. For example, this from Massimo: “To begin with, whether Buddhist views are true ‘is precisely’ [author’s emphasis] the matter.” Really? I didn’t get that impression.

    Perhaps Priest can clarify his intent for us. But to be fair to him consider this statement in his article: “The constructions I have described show how to make precise mathematical sense of the Buddhist views. This does not, of course, show that they are true. That’s a different matter. But it does show that these ideas can be made as logically rigorous and coherent as ideas can be.”

    The problem here is perhaps in the infelicitous use of “Buddhist views.” It seems clear to me that in the context of Priest’s article he is restricting what he means to their use of the catuskoti and how this might explain what seems to be contradictory in statements like Nagarjuna’s “The nature of things is to have no nature; it is their non-nature that is their nature. For they have only one nature: no-nature.” Priest is careful to note “The Buddha, in fact, refused to answer such queries. In some sutras, he just says that they are a waste of time: you don’t need to bother with them to achieve enlightenment.” Are we seriously engaged in what Buddha “really thought.” Good luck with that.

    And so Massimo in an effort to reframe this matter (at least in my view) writes: “I think this is a questionable move. I don’t think there is any real contradiction at play here. Let me take the case of Kant in particular, since it is by far the least obscurely put.” But what’s the point in the context of Priest’s article? Is Priest making a case that Kant’s views are more Buddhist than Kantian?

    And so on, like this: “As for Buddhist ideas being just as rigorous as Western logic and math, again, no. The rigor in the latter comes out of the ability to very precisely spell out formalism, build arguments and proofs, defend or abandon axioms, and so on.” Well, okay, if you put it like that. But is that Priest’s point or Massimo’s? This is not an attempt to argue Massimo’s points but rather to ask “But what do we get out of all of this?”

    Most of my readings have focused on Zen Buddhism, particularly the Rinzai school, where the reliance on logical and conceptual thinking is viewed as an obstacle to enlightenment. Thus the focus on koans that are meant to frustrate this approach. So I tend to view this as analogous to Wittgenstein’s ladder, which ultimately is kicked away.

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  9. Priest’s article made me wonder if a logic of qualia is possible. Instead of a proposition getting a truth-value of T, it may get a truth-value of (T, i) for true-and-ineffable. For example ‘one way that green appears to me is g’ (where g is a patch of green) gets truth-value (T, i). There are truth tables for operators, ect.

    P

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  10. Too outspoken again. It is a bad habit. My apologies Massimo, my blood is only metaphorically boiling. But dammit, this stuff is hard to take for a fan of Nagarjuna. Your colleague does Nagarjuna no favours.

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  11. Oh, dear. Another instance of two highly intelligent thinkers making similar mistakes (albeit for different reasons) and still ending up talking at cross-purposes.
    The first mistake is assuming there is only one Buddhism.
    That just isn’t so. The collection of beliefs, philosophies, practices we identify as “Buddhism” is far more fragmented than any similar ideology in the West (say Christianity or Marxism), because of it’s long history of adapting to many cultures. (I recently posted a brief remark on this on my own blog, http://nosignofit.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/nontheism-and-faith-and-mine/, so for brevity’s sake I’ll reference that and move on.) For now, the most important fragmentation is the difference between the Theravadan and the Mayahanan. The importance of that distinction here is this: Massimo makes his mistake as an outsider; Priest makes his because (judging from his text) he has Mahayana (specifically Tibetan) commitments. (Nagarjuna was Indian, but his thought received its fullest development in Tibet.) Disclosure: my own bias is Theravadan, and I am what S. Batchelor calls a ‘secular Buddhist,’ a Buddhist who feels that all the mystery elements of Buddhism can be jettisoned, certainly those incompatible with Western logic.
    Or Eastern logic, for that matter! “As for Buddhist ideas being just as rigorous as Western logic and math, again, no.” Disagreeing, I recommend reading some major texts on logic written in Tibet, but here will only mention one, Dharmakirti’s “A Short Treatise on Logic, Naya-Bindu” (http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Logic-Part-Two-1930/dp/1417982845/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407775449&sr=1-4&keywords=stcherbatsky). The text is devoted to formal analysis of inference and syllogistic reasoning, with references to such problems as universals and empirical experience. Why? Because, as Dharmottara (Dharmakirti’s commentator) notes, “Right knowledge [a step on the Eightfold Path] is knowledge not contradicted (by experience).” Wow, that’s… really…. mystical… NOT.
    But remaining with Nagarjuna: I would suggest Priest is only giving one possible reading of Nagarjuna, and that it is, to some extent, mistaken. (And since Priest’s reading is Massimo’s given, Massimo makes the same mistake about it, while taking it in a different direction.) For my preferred reading, let’s consider Nagarjuna’s deconstruction of the presumed ‘reality’ of a chariot (from memory, and redacting, but I hope fairly):
    We say of an object, e.g., that it is in essence a chariot, therefore we should always find in it this ‘chariotness.’ But if we take the sides away, and the platform, and the wheels (etc.), we find there no more chariot, hence no such thing as ‘chariotness’ (i.e., no ‘essence’).
    This, because the word ‘chariot’ is a not sign for the object, but for our concept of the object (which is always a composite of other concepts, i.e., e.g., ‘sides,’ ‘platform,’ ‘wheel,’ etc.), which is constructed to account for sense data.
    Now we can say that there is both a ‘chariot’ there (for practical purposes – something we refer to for use) and yet no (essential) chariot there (something by its nature a chariot). ‘Chariot’ is therefore ’empty’ of essence (inherent, independent being).
    Thus it can be said that the nature of things (as we can know them), i.e., their ‘essential being,’ is to have no nature, i.e., no ‘essential being,’ since we only know them as composites. The words referring to things can serve practical purposes (e.g., ‘tie’ the ‘chariot’ to a ‘horse’ and ‘ride away’), but can claim nothing of ‘essential’ reality, since their reference is to concepts of things – constructions of perception – and not the things themselves (‘chariotness’ has no reality, the word ‘chariot’ is devoid of reference to ‘essential’ reality).

    “A ‘thing’ (bhava) is construction. Emptiness is the absence
    of construction. Where constructions have appeared how
    can there be emptiness (sunyata)?” –Nagarjuna*

    One can accuse Nagarjuna of equivocating. Some of that has to do with his historical context, and some with his implicit position that language itself inevitably equivocates. Now we begin to see how some Buddhist philosophies really can be seen as developing problematics similar to those we find in the West, since Nagarjuna’s position clearly resonates with certain nominalist, skeptical, and constructivist ideas in the West.
    Of course, one can read into this some form of mysticism and go on to discuss ‘ineffables,’ as Gorampa did and Priest does. But one can also read this as simply dismissive of those same ‘ineffables,’ as we can find in Zen – or for that matter, in Anglo-American traditions (or in the ‘noumenon’ of Kant). For instance, in one text Nagarjuna says that the resolution to the catuskoti concerning Nirvana (an apparent ‘ineffable’) is that Nirvana is identical to Samsara – the cycle of birth and death (and whatever comes before and after). Isn’t this as much as to suggest that Nirvana is a realization of *whatever just is*, rather than a possible transcendence of it?
    Of course Nagarjuna accepted the theory of reincarnation, so ‘spirituality’ or ‘mysticism’ could found in that. But this doesn’t necessitate either a sweeping rejection of, or an obscuring promotion of, his reasoning and the logic that later developed out of it. The logic in certain Buddhist philosophies can be useful in dealing with problematics in Western logic(s). But I don’t think Priest has made a good case for that (although his essay is informative of some of those problematics). Consequently, I’m not persuaded by Massimo’s use of Priest’s case to reject interest in Buddhist philosophies or their logics. Many Buddhist sects do indulge in mysticism. But many Western philosophies still indulge in empty metaphysics (even the long discredited Platonic notion of ‘essence’ is still deployed by Catholic theologians under the guise of ‘immaterial substance’). Unlike some contemporary physicists, most of us would not discard Western philosophy as a whole just because there are some silly Western philosophers. (I would discard Catholic theology as a whole, but I admit a certain fondness for Aquinas’ syllogistic clarity.)
    From my ‘secular Buddhist’ position, Buddhism is really at its core a philosophy of ethics. But in its historical development, along with some silly mysticisms and religious institutionalizations, it brought forth a rich tradition of reasoning thought, some of which may still be useful today.

    (*Not having a copy of the Mulamadhyamakakarika at hand, I got my quote from Nagarjuna from an essay partly about the conflicting readings of Nagarjuna given by Tibetan and Chinese traditions, https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/madhyamikabuddhism/conversations/topics/148. The translation is by Chr. Lindtner.)

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  12. Massimo, you claim logicians in the Western tradition aren’t concerned with the actual world and focus instead on the structure of sentences, in contrast with Buddhist many-valued logic which owes its existence to mystical beliefs. We are supposed to conclude, you seem to be arguing, that this difference in focus demonstrates why Western logic is to be preferred to the exclusion of Buddhist logic. However, lest we forget, even though it is the case that logicians tinker with formal systems, logic in the Western tradition is, no different than in the Buddhist tradition, also meant to tell us something (hopefully true) about the world. The formal system didn’t happen first even in the Western tradition: the rules of logic grew out of the predominant manner of thinking at the beginning of Western civilization. Aristotle, you must remember, developed his own logical argument for the existence of God (what passes for mysticism in the Western world). Out of this grew a formal system that has, like mathematics, had a great many successful applications outside of its original usage. How can we say that the logic found in the Western tradition is free from the influence of the culture in which it incubated, while the logic found in the Buddhist tradition is not? This seems patently biased. Further, wouldn’t it be as easily true of Buddhist logic that it might have applications beyond its original intent? Your calling attention to the mystic origin of Buddhist logic doesn’t seem to do the work you want it to do.

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  13. Howdy. This is my first comment on ‘scientia salon,’ which I only just happened upon an hour ago. I’m still thinking about what I’d like to say about the content of the essay, but I’d like to make two suggestions about its form. I think it could benefit from more formatting.
    – I like the footnotes/endnotes. Since the essay is on a single page, I guess they’re technically both footnotes and endnotes. It would be better if the numerals themselves (eg, [1], [2], [3], etc.) were linked to one another (ie, clicking on the “[1]” in the main text takes you to the “[1]” in the footer and vice versa).
    – I think that the essay would be easier to read if the extended quotes were more than just set of with quotation marks. You could use a different but same sized font, or indent the text, or even set a pale colored background for the selected text.

    Both of these changes are very easy to make on wordpress and would IMO improve the reader’s experience with the blog. 🙂

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  14. That’s some good stuff, ejwinner, but I think you are too hard on Massimo and Graham.

    I don’t think anybody is making the mistake of thinking there is only one Buddhism. I’m not sure where you get that from. Graham’s article was just to point out tantalising similarities between some Buddhist thought and modern developments in logic, while Massimo’s was to point out the differences between the two. None of this assumes Buddhism is one monolithic entity.

    I don’t know much about Buddhism, but I find your interpretation of Nagarjuna to be very plausible. It’s actually very similar to how I interpreted what he was saying just from reading the article. Would you see connections to the mathematical universe hypothesis or ontic structural realism as I do?

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  15. Now, as to the content…

    The crucial statement is, “Buddhism as presented in his essay, is indeed a type of mysticism, not a philosophy, which means that logic (and, consequently, argumentation) are besides the point. ”

    So, I think the questions to ask are:

    What are the definitions of mysticism and of philosophy, and are they mutually exclusive?

    >Massimo Pigliucci (MP) says, “the word ‘mysticism’ almost automatically carries a negative connotation in the Wes… if by mysticism we simply mean an intuitive, rather than a discursive, approach to thinking about the nature of reality, by all means, bring your intuitions to bear on whatever it is we are discussing.”

    I object to the suggestion that mysticism would be defined in terms, especially when we’re contrasting it with philosophy. Philosophy doesn’t begin with empirical observation after all! I think everyone begins with philosophical intuitions and builds upon and refines them if they’re going to produce high quality philosophy. I’d define mysticism in terms of the supernatural. not in terms of our intuitions. An insight that’s divinely inspired or that’s divinely revealed is mystical. An belief that in the same exact circumstances one could have chosen to act differently than how you did by an exercise of will is probably a false belief, but it’s definitely intuitive. However, unless the belief is connected to beliefs about a soul or some other spiritual entity, I don’t believe that it’s mystical.

    >Graham Priest (GP) says of ‘mysticism’, “the label has little enough meaning. But whatever you call it, it is rife in great philosophy — Eastern and Western.”

    >MP responds that, “It may be great mysticism… but not great philosophy.”

    I really wonder about the word “great.” How important is it’s inclusion? If it’s essential to the point being argued, then for reasons that should be obvious, we’re in a lot of trouble. If it’s not essential, then I understand GP using it (because he’s arguing mysticism not only isn’t disqualifying, but it’s an ingredient in the best examples), but I don’t understand quite why MP chooses to use it. Would it matter to him if great philosophy was mysticism free, but ordinary philosophy contained it? My suspicion is, ‘yes, it would matter,’ because the approach he’s taking to how one goes about defining philosophy is one that’s essentially honorific, but that might be unfair.

    >MP: “The term ‘philosophy,’ … is best reserved for the sort of argument-cum-logic approach”

    That’s pretty blatantly just an opinion. It’s like saying, ‘hot dogs are best served with mustard, possibly relish, but never ketchup.’ One could agree but still believe that a hot dog with ketchup is a possibility. If we’re concerned with defining ‘hot dog’, it’s irrelevant. It’s relevant if we’re concerned with deciding what the best way to prepare a hot dog is, but that’s a problematic parallel if we return to philosophy.

    This quote also raises the question, ‘is philosophy defined by how one approaches questions or by what questions are asked?’ In other words, does philosophy have a definition that comes from its subject matter, like history, or one that comes from its method, like science. Supposing that both subject based and methodological definitions are plausible, what motivates preferring one to the other?

    In my experience, preference for the methodological definition often seems motivated by the honorific approach to defining philosophy. That approach certainly isn’t unique to philosopher’s defining philosophy. It happens whenever people are given an opportunity to define their own discipline. Fine artists are the worst. Many suggest art should be defined in a way that, to my ears seems to make “great art” a redundancy. Philosophy has a special problem, however, because philosophers are tasked with providing fair definitions for other disciplines, but there’s no one to do this for us. Science doesn’t define science. Philosophy of science defines science. Philosophy is defined by metaphilosophy!

    >MP: “argument-cum-logic approach developed by the pre-Socratics and their immediate successors (who, after all, introduced the very word!)”

    Hmmm… I think that’s taking a creative approach to the word’s origin. The word was introduced by Pythagoras, who was a mystic if ever there was one. By contemporary standards he’d be considered a damn cult leader!

    My view of the word is that it must be defined in a way that reflects the important distinction between science (seeking knowledge – and pursuing truths that are concrete) and philosophy (seeking wisdom and pursuing truths that are both abstract and profound), but that distinction wasn’t present in the word’s original meaning. The philosophy/science schism is fairly recent. I remember being shocked when as a teen visiting a college campus, I found that the physics department was housed in a building that had ‘Natural Philosophy’ carved into it’s facade.

    My sense is that it originally signified ‘lover of wisdom’ in a way that we associate with ‘penniless scholars’ or ‘ink stained wretches’ today. In other words, it probably indicated that you valued knowledge and wisdom as opposed to valuing profit, fame or power. I can well imagine Pythagoras believing that some half starved mountain top guru would quality as a philosopher. That isn’t an argument for us to define things as he might have, but I think it’s an argument against using the pre-Socratic origins of the term as a justification for excluding mysticism.

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  16. “your premise that math/logic isn’t about the world. Denying that premise doesn’t amount to mysticism” – I don’t know if this is helpful, but I want to suggest two kinds of ‘isn’t about the world’:

    a) isn’t about the world, because…
    it’s incompatible with the world in which we exist

    b) isn’t about the world, because…
    it’s not about anything specific to the world in which we exist sense it’s compatible with all possible worlds

    I think religious hoodoo isn’t about the world in sense ‘a,’ which makes it mysticism. Math and logic aren’t about the world in sense ‘b,’ which doesn’t make them mysticism.

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  17. I ❤ this! A raccoon! I only regret that the lion didn't bite him 🙂
    TBH, I've always felt that there was something profoundly 'koan-like' about writing a book length argument whose conclusion is that the book oughtn't to be written.

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  18. DM,

    “it is quite reasonable, I feel, to suppose that they intuited something of the formal logics Graham discusses.”

    It is possible, of course. The problem is that — precisely because of the lack of formal arguments and reliance on (by Graham’s own admission) cryptic statements — it is hard to tell just how much it is Graham that is retrofitting his understanding of logic into Buddhist thinking.

    “I quite like the claim that the nature of things is to have no nature. Like Graham, I could be accused of reading too much into the mystical tradition, but this strikes me as not so unlike the claims of Tegmark, Ladyman and Ross in the MUH or OSR that all there is is mathematics or relations”

    That’s precisely the kind of parallel I’m worried about. It strikes of Capra-style reading of quantum mechanics into the writings of people who couldn’t possibly have arrived at anything like quantum mechanics.

    Gregory,

    “I think a lot depends on your premise that math/logic isn’t about the world. Denying that premise doesn’t amount to mysticism unless you’re willing to say that fregean logical realism is mysticism, for example.”

    I don’t deny that logic, but it doesn’t follow even from that that logic is “about” the world, not in the sense I explored in the essay. Logic is — by definition — concerned with the formal properties of reasoning, not its content.

    Peter,

    “Westerners who complain that the Buddhists are just spewing unstructured nonsense have not paid enough attention to either tradition”

    Maybe, maybe not. As I said, I think Graham engages in too much forced reading to make his case convincing, at the least to me.

    “Whether it’s properly called “mysticism” or “philosophy” I think is just a matter of how one puts these ideas to use”

    Well, I don’t belong to the “everything is philosophy” school of thought. To me philosophy is an activity of logical reflection assisted by defensible arguments, as in (some) Western and (some) Indian traditions. As soon as one abandons that approach one is doing something different — which may or may not be valuable, but it is certainly different. (Notice that, as I wrote in the essay, this isn’t an East-West thing, since I consider Heidegger, for instance, much more of a mystic than a philosopher.)

    Peter,

    “I would even go so far as to say that GP does not understand ordinary logic.”

    With all due respect, Graham is one of the most established logicians alive at the moment. To accuse him of not understanding logic is a bit on the preposterous side of things.

    “There is no necessary choice between mysticism and philosophy. They both lead to the same place.”

    You seem to be confusing two different propositions here: a) mysticism and philosophy lead to the same conclusions (which remains to be seen, my bet is that sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t); b) mysticism and philosophy are the same kind of mental activity (which I definitely deny). A third proposition would ask to what degree Buddhism is (are, because there are a number of versions and traditions of it, as both Graham and I are well aware) something akin to mysticism vs philosophy. There my answer would be that it depends, but that a significant amount of Buddhism thought seems to me to fall closer to the mysticism end of the spectrum.

    “At present I am in a small dispute with the editors at the Stanford Encyclopaedia on this very issue. It is as if everybody thinks Nagarjuna was a blithering idiot and that no Buddhist ever had a brain.”

    I’ll be interested in how that dispute will be resolved, but I think the editors of the SEP are not blithering idiots themselves, so they are probably onto something.

    “Follow Priest and you will end up with the paradoxical universe of Melhuish and the true contradictions of ‘dialethism’. For a reasonable universe that obeys the laws of thought and is free of contradictions we would need to follow Nagarjuna.”

    Perhaps. I tend to simply embrace the idea that there are true logical contradictions and no be too bothered by them. I think of them as the logical equivalent of singularities in math. They are there, they are interesting, and there is no sensible way in which they need to be “resolved.”

    “for a good explanation of Buddhism it would be best to consult more widely that with one of its most ardent critics.”

    I know Graham personally, and that is most definitely not an accurate characterization of his thinking about Buddhism.

    “Nagarjuna proves that all positive metaphysical positions are logically absurd.”

    Well, while I reiterated my profession of ignorance of the details of his thought, I find that proposition close to absurd in and of itself.

    “This remains the only workable solution for metaphysics that has ever been proposed”

    Oh, I don’t know, I find the approach described by Ladyman and Ross much more workable.

    “To dismiss it on the basis of an unsympathetic misinterpretation would be madness”

    You may be taking this a bit too seriously. It’s not like there are lives at stake. As Hume famously put it, even when philosophy is mistaken, its mistakes are only ridiculous, not dangerous.

    “This allergy to mysticism but love for discursive philosophy is ridiculous. It’s like being in favour of theoretical physics but against doing any experiments.”

    Your opinion, of course. I don’t see the analogy, and I don’t find a rejection of mysticism to be ridiculous at all (it may be unwise, but not ridiculous).

    victor,

    “we can say the human brains of the east and the human brains of the west share the same tradition of thinking but just a matter of difference of formalized logical refinement which is the confusion Graham Priest is addressing.”

    Maybe, but I’m not convinced by the way he addresses it, for the reasons I explained in the essay.

    Thomas,

    “this from Massimo: “To begin with, whether Buddhist views are true ‘is precisely’ [author’s emphasis] the matter.” Really? I didn’t get that impression.”

    I didn’t mean to imply that that was the point of Graham’s piece. But it is an important point that he simply recognizes and dismisses in his essay, possibly because he senses that he would be in trouble if he tackled it.

    “Perhaps Priest can clarify his intent for us. But to be fair to him”

    I should add that I sent my piece to Graham before publication. He confirmed that I did not misrepresent his points.

    ejwinner,

    “The first mistake is assuming there is only one Buddhism.”

    Neither I nor Graham make that mistake. He because he knows quite a bit about the rich history of Buddhism(s), I because I specifically limited myself to the claims Graham was making, not attempting to write about Buddhism in all its facets.

    “We say of an object, e.g., that it is in essence a chariot, therefore we should always find in it this ‘chariotness.’ But if we take the sides away, and the platform, and the wheels (etc.), we find there no more chariot, hence no such thing as ‘chariotness’ (i.e., no ‘essence’).”

    Well, I take you at your words that this example is accurate. It doesn’t really do much to sway my thinking, though, as I can very clearly see the mistake being made (confusing the parts of an object for the ensemble). Besides, one doesn’t need to take a chariot apart to show that there is no such thing as chariotness — unless one is a Platonist, that is!

    “Now we can say that there is both a ‘chariot’ there (for practical purposes – something we refer to for use) and yet no (essential) chariot there (something by its nature a chariot).”

    Which would be a needless complication of an otherwise perfectly straightforward situation.

    “Thus it can be said that the nature of things (as we can know them), i.e., their ‘essential being,’ is to have no nature, i.e., no ‘essential being,’ since we only know them as composites.”

    A bit hastened as a conclusion. Would you be able to apply the same reasoning to an elementary particle, which by definition has no further components?

    “For instance, in one text Nagarjuna says that the resolution to the catuskoti concerning Nirvana (an apparent ‘ineffable’) is that Nirvana is identical to Samsara – the cycle of birth and death (and whatever comes before and after). Isn’t this as much as to suggest that Nirvana is a realization of *whatever just is*, rather than a possible transcendence of it?”

    I’m not sure, because I’m not sure what to make of any of this. Since there is no reason to think that there is such a thing as the cycle of birth and death, I don’t know what it means to say that Nirvana is identical to Samsara (the latter has an empty reference, if I understand you properly). And even at face value I just don’t see how you go from your first sentence to your second one.

    “Of course Nagarjuna accepted the theory of reincarnation, so ‘spirituality’ or ‘mysticism’ could found in that. But this doesn’t necessitate either a sweeping rejection of, or an obscuring promotion of, his reasoning and the logic that later developed out of it.”

    At the very least it necessitates a hard critical look at it, I would say.

    “Many Buddhist sects do indulge in mysticism. But many Western philosophies still indulge in empty metaphysics”

    Yes, and I’ve made that point in my essay. Again, this isn’t a East-West thing, though a surprising number of people seem to want to see it that way.

    Aaron,

    “you claim logicians in the Western tradition aren’t concerned with the actual world and focus instead on the structure of sentences”

    Not exactly. There are plenty of very much practical applications of logic (Western or Eastern doesn’t matter), for instance in math and computer science. What I said was that logic is — again, by definition — concerned with the formal structure of arguments and propositions, irrespective of their specific content. It is the same for mathematics, which is why both logicians and mathematicians use symbols (rather than, respectively, words or numbers) in their work. But it would be really inadvisable to conclude from that that mathematics has no application to the world, or that mathematicians are never concerned with such applications, right?

    “in contrast with Buddhist many-valued logic which owes its existence to mystical beliefs”

    I’m not on board with Graham’s characterizing of Buddhist logic as many-valued. One of my points was that this strikes me as a rather forced reading, aimed at making Buddhist logic seem like the equivalent of recent advances in Western logic.

    “We are supposed to conclude, you seem to be arguing, that this difference in focus demonstrates why Western logic is to be preferred to the exclusion of Buddhist logic.”

    No, that’s not what I concluded. I concluded that if something qualifies as logic (again, Eastern or Western, Buddhist or otherwise), by all means it needs to be taken on board. But I’m skeptical of mystical “insights,” and also of attempts to reconcile the first with the second.

    “Aristotle, you must remember, developed his own logical argument for the existence of God (what passes for mysticism in the Western world)”

    First off, Aristotle didn’t develop his logic to arrive at those arguments, he used logic as a tool. Second, I would deny that logic-based arguments for the existence of god are mysticism at all. Visions and “insights” are mystical, not logic. (That of course, doesn’t mean that such arguments succeed; I certainly think they utterly fail.)

    “How can we say that the logic found in the Western tradition is free from the influence of the culture in which it incubated, while the logic found in the Buddhist tradition is not?”

    Where di I ever say such thing?

    ockraz,

    “I object to the suggestion that mysticism would be defined in terms, especially when we’re contrasting it with philosophy. Philosophy doesn’t begin with empirical observation after all!”

    Neither is mathematics, but it would be hard to make a case that there are no differences between mysticism and math. (Though, of course, one can be mystical *about* math, like Pythagoras himself was.)

    “I’d define mysticism in terms of the supernatural. not in terms of our intuitions.”

    I disagree. In fact, the supernatural is kind of orthogonal to the discussion we are having. As I said above, one can come up with very logical (if ultimately unconvincing) arguments for the existence of god. Or one can go mystical and claim that he has direct perception of a divine reality. Both approaches are about the same thing, but they are radically different in my mind.

    “MP responds that, “It may be great mysticism… but not great philosophy.” I really wonder about the word “great.””

    Don’t read to much in it, I was simply being charitable.

    “MP: “The term ‘philosophy,’ … is best reserved for the sort of argument-cum-logic approach” That’s pretty blatantly just an opinion.”

    It is definitely an opinion, but not as blatant as you seem to think. It is based on studying the history of philosophy, and particularly its undeniable roots in ancient Greece. And yes, I’m aware of — and have mentioned — similar traditions in, for instance, India. Once more: it isn’t about East-West.

    “This quote also raises the question, ‘is philosophy defined by how one approaches questions or by what questions are asked?”

    Both, I’d say, though mostly the latter. It is well known (even notorious, for people who dismiss philosophy) that one can philosophize about anything, which seems to imply that there is something about the approach, not the specific subject matter, that makes it “philosophical.”

    “preference for the methodological definition often seems motivated by the honorific approach to defining philosophy.”

    Maybe. But I’m darn proud to be a philosopher, and worked hard at it, so yes, I consider the term honorific. Just like I consider the term “scientific” to be honorific — also because I am a scientist and worked hard at being a good one. This is also why I get upset when I see bad philosophy, or bad science, for that matter.

    “The word was introduced by Pythagoras, who was a mystic if ever there was one. By contemporary standards he’d be considered a damn cult leader!”

    That’s an interesting observation, but seems irrelevant to my point. Pythagoras was also a great mathematician: was the fact that he was a mystic somehow undermines his math? Or is his mysticism somehow enhanced by the fact that he was a mathematician? I doubt both propositions very much.

    “My view of the word is that it must be defined in a way that reflects the important distinction between science (seeking knowledge – and pursuing truths that are concrete) and philosophy (seeking wisdom and pursuing truths that are both abstract and profound), but that distinction wasn’t present in the word’s original meaning.”

    That’s an interesting point, and the science/philosophy demarcation is one of my professional interests. This is not the occasion to go back to it, however.

    “I think it’s an argument against using the pre-Socratic origins of the term as a justification for excluding mysticism”

    As I said, I disagree. It’s not just the pre-Socratics, it is a whole long and somewhat consistent tradition of thought that spans millennia (and different parts of the globe).

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  19. Boy, don’t understand the interest or relevance of folk wisdom’s imaginary constructions on anything of interest. But, like old books, old ideas that are marketing “hooks.”

    New from brain science – “In 33 milliseconds we decide whether or not we can trust someone.”

    “Mind and matter are becoming united as mind, by studying matter, finally realizes what it actually is.” Frank Wilczek

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  20. Hi Massimo,

    That’s precisely the kind of parallel I’m worried about. It strikes of Capra-style reading of quantum mechanics into the writings of people who couldn’t possibly have arrived at anything like quantum mechanics.

    I don’t see that QM has much to do with it. QM can be used as some sort of intuitive justification, but the idea that all that exists are relations is independent of QM.

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  21. Woops, I misread you. Cheers.

    Yes, I see where you’re coming from. However the basic idea of OSR seems to me to be reasonably independent of science or technology to the point where it might be essentially the same as what Nagarjuna is advocating. I’m not asserting this is the case, just that it is not that wild an interpretation.

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  22. Ockraz,

    I think that mysticism relates to methodology, to epistemic issues, not to subject matter, to semantics. We could have mystical thinking about atoms and we could have non-mystical thinking about the afterlife (doing the latter perhaps would take us to the denial that there is such a thing anyway). The point is: if buddhism is identifiable in terms of some subject matter, then independently of that, it will be open whether buddhism is mysticism or not. If it were a constitutive feature of buddhism (of its subject matter) that it should not be put to work under logical systems (or if by nature that were impossible), then I would say “Ok, buddhism is mysticism”, but if not, then buddhism would be workable in the way that Priest suggests. I believe that the second option is the most plausible one.

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  23. Hi Massimo, thanks for the reply.

    Well, here things can get a bit murkier, because I do think that Logic is, to some measure, concerned with content (logicians have some dirty secrets), as Varzi says (in “On the Interplay between Logic and Metaphysics”): “After all, insofar as logically valid reasoning must be truth-preserving, logic must tell us something about truth. It mustn’t tell us which sentences are true; but it must tell us what it takes for a sentence to be true. It mustn’t tell us what are the truth-makers for a sentence; but it must tell us what the truth-makers for a sentence must be like. And as such logic has a lot to do with metaphysics.” (p.3).

    It seems to me that you believe that Priest is trying to go from buddhism to metaphysics (to something that could be true, even necessarily so, about our world), and to do so he needs first to go from buddhism to logic, and then go from logic to metaphysics, and you deny that this last step could be done. Well, I think that it can be done and that doing so would not amount to mysticism. So, perhaps the crux of the matter is this: can we find something that could really be called “buddhism” to fill the first step and at the same time hold that logical truths may have metaphysical weight? So far, Priest convinced me that we can.

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  24. Hi Massimo,

    I would add that Priest overstates the significance of the logical formalism for his purposes. To be clear, I’m not accusing him of thinking that the formalism shows that there are in fact true contradictions (he clearly avoids making that mistake.) I’m saying that the formalism doesn’t even help make sense of the position (something he clearly *does* think, as he concludes, “The constructions I have described show how to make precise mathematical sense of the Buddhist views….it does show that these ideas can be made as logically rigorous and coherent as ideas can be.”) All he does is say is that “the truth value of P” should be treated as a relation rather than a function. But that’s just a mathematical jargon-y way of saying that a proposition can have multiple (seemingly incompatible) truth-values. Okay…but that’s precisely the part that many people suspect of being incoherent!

    To use an analogy, suppose you’re wondering how something could possibly be both a circle and a square at the same time. It does no help to say, “Aha, perhaps ‘the shape of X’ should be construed as a relation between X and many shapes, instead of a function between X and just one shape!” That doesn’t help make sense of things at all. Even if you’re open to the possibility of treating “the shape of X” as a relation, you’re still just as perplexed as before how the same thing could be both a circle and a square at the same time. There *might* be ways of making that idea logically rigorous (maybe there’s a weird geometry in which a figure could have both the characteristic properties of circles and squares, and hence reasonably be considered both), but merely saying ‘the shape of X’ is a relation does no work in making the idea more “logically rigorous or coherent” than before.

    Long story short: I’m not declaring that it’s impossible to make sense of the idea of a true contradiction – I’m just denying Priest’s claim that the formal tools he mentions are helpful for making sense of the idea, or help make it any more rigorous.

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  25. Also, I agree with Massimo’s characterization of mysticism vs. philosophy. Of course, people can disagree on the words they use, but the underlying conceptual distinction is a robust and long-recognized one. Medieval scholastic philosophy could probably be considered very non-mystical, since it was very much grounded in logic, reason, argumentation, dialectic, etc. (doesn’t mean they were right about anything in particular.) They *also* believed in things that might be considered mystical (meditation, divine revelation, etc.), but they were keen on distinguishing what was known from “natural reason” and what wasn’t.

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  26. Massimo, I want to make it clear that I did *not* say you had misrepresented Priest’s points. I said you were making demands of them that *I* don’t see as the objective of his article, in the same way that you point out (and I agree) to those who demanded that his article somehow be a fuller treatment of Buddhism.

    So when you comment to me: “But it is an important point that he simply recognizes and dismisses in his essay, possibly because he senses that he would be in trouble if he tackled it,” I don’t buy it unless of course he actually admitted this to you. But I suppose it’s “possible.” It’s also possible you’re just leading with your naturalistic head.

    As I said in my original comment, “This is not an attempt to argue [your] points but rather to ask ‘But what do we get out of all of this?’ And so, when I compare his article to your commentary on it, I’m not convinced that the objectives and emphases are the same in each piece. You obviously feel differently.

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  27. “Well, no. To begin with, whether Buddhist views are true is precisely the matter. Logic and math cannot be false, unless one has made a mistake in the formalism. And they cannot be false precisely because they do not deal with statements concerning the world. The same courtesy cannot be extended to any form of mysticism, philosophy or science, for that matter.”

    The thought comes to mind that the concept of zero revolutionized mathematics. The concept of division by zero was ineffable but for Leibniz and Newton the concept of dividing by an amount infinitely small and close to zero yielded a revolution in mathematics. I’m just as fascinated by the idea that consciousness is explained by Higher Order Theory or “Thoughts About Our Thoughts”. I think what Graham is driving at is the ability of the human brain to contemplate and even jump certain gaps; which is not unique to The Eastern Tradition only; by giving the examples of Western logic. I think what you are driving at is we need to logically explain them. My best guess is the neocortex is actually developed like our visual retina so it is layered and rooted in our more basic brain function. Although human behavior runs on the social laws of right and wrong, brains take on a much different dimension which defies T vs F thinking.

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  28. Excellent article. It touches three very important topics.
    1. What is logic? And, about the issue of ineffable.
    2. What is religion in general, and Buddhism in particular?
    3. What is mysticism (vs science)?

    “… in Aristotelian logic, and particularly in two of its pillars: the principle of non contradiction (contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time) and the law of the excluded middle (either something is true or it isn’t, no third option available) …”

    All laws are ‘domain’ dependent. Aristotelian logic is true only if its domain is a ‘closed (totally closed)’ system. Yes, many pseudo-closed systems can be artificially demarked. But, there is no true-closed system in nature, and this is proved by the two Godel incompleteness theorem, Church’s undecidability theorem of formal system and Tarski’s indefinability. Aristotelian logic is usable only in an artificially produced closed-formal system.

    For a ‘nature’-formal system, it will inevitably fall into the Godel trap (processes), producing zillions (goes ad infinitum) ‘contradictions’ which are just as true as their counterparts.

    Thus, {…when a principle known as catuskoti (“four corners”) was being formulated. Here is how he explains it: “[catuskoti] insists that there are four possibilities regarding any statement: it might be true (and true only), false (and false only), both true and false, or neither true nor false.}, this catuskoti is in principle not different from the Aristotelian logic, even if it divides its logic-space into zillions (millions or billions) outcomes.

    In the book “Linguistics Manifesto, (ISBN 978-3-8383-9722-1)”, the ‘linguistics’-space encompasses three parts (tiers).
    a. A formal system: Aristotelian-type logic is useful.
    b. A Godel process: ruled by paradoxes (Russell paradox, Kurt Grelling paradox, etc.). The ‘principle of complimentary’ rules (yes and no are separate entities).
    c. The ‘Life’ system: swallowing all paradoxes (contradictions). The ‘principle of immanence’ rules (there is no in yes, and vice versa). The ad infinitum Godel process is stopped by this ‘Life’-process. Note: the bio-life sphere is the ‘smallest’ Life system while the ‘linguistics’-universe is the largest Life-system.

    What is logic? The Life-process is the ultimate-logic. This issue was described in detail in the book “Linguistics Manifesto”, and thus I will not go into the detail here. Now, the next issue, the ineffability which is advocated by at least four schools.

    One, the current mainstream physics community: the anti-realism — anything which cannot be tested is not real and must be ineffable (see, http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2013/12/06/paradigm-shift/#comment-163211 ).

    Two, the Buddhism, especially the Zen tradition: which claims that the ‘final’-truth is reachable by ‘intelligence’ but is un-describable by ‘languages’.

    Three, the BIV argument: at least one issue is unknowable in a ‘closed’-system.

    Four, the solipsism-nonsense.

    Again, in the book “Linguistics Manifesto’, it has proved that ‘intelligent-sphere’ is only a subset of the ‘linguistics-universe’. That is, anything is reachable by intelligence is describable by linguistics. Instead of repeating that argument, I have showed a different ‘proof’ in some of my previous comments at this Webzine: the ‘linguistics universe (encompassing the logic sphere, math-universe and the metaphysical possibility-universe)’ is only a subset of the ‘physics-universe’. This proof consists of two parts.

    Part one: the base of the ‘physics-universe’ must be ‘timeless (eternal) and immutable’.

    Part two: the ‘timeless and immutable’ must go beyond as concepts of philosophy and theology. They must be physics-processes (graspable and measurable).

    In fact, there are two types of physics: the ‘nature physics’ which rules this universe, and the ‘human physics’ which is discovered by human endeavors thus far. If some part of the nature physics is forever beyond the reach of human effort, it is still an ontological ‘reality’ there, keep ruling this universe. As processes, they must ‘produce’ products.

    In the ‘human physics’, we have discovered a lot, yet with many open questions. On the other hand, for something to be the ‘base’ of the nature-physics, it not only must ‘reproduce’ all the known ‘human physics’ but also must answer all the open questions. I have showed some of those ‘products (product, …, products, …)’ at this Webzine many times. I will give a more precise info here.

    One, one of the product for the ‘timeless process’ is the Alpha equation (see, http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2014/01/sean-carroll-edge-and-falsifiability.html?showComment=1391399941430#c7928983959769516299 )

    Two, one of the product for the ‘immutable process’ is the string-unification (see, https://scientiasalon.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/my-philosophy-so-far-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-2432 ).

    There is a big difference for understanding between ‘products’ and ‘processes’. The processes of making car or airplane are not readily understandable by the laymen. But everyone can learn to drive a car or ride an airplane easy. The two ‘products’ above can be understood by every 8th grader. When these two products are understood, we can then go one step further to discuss the processes. From these two processes, we can prove the followings:
    A. All complex systems (linguistics, logic space, math-universe, metaphysics-possibility-universe, etc.) are only subsets of the physics-universe.
    B. All issues which are reachable by intelligence are describable in linguistics. In fact, there is no ineffable thing (including the conception of God) in this universe.

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  29. Besides, one doesn’t need to take a chariot apart to show that there is no such thing as chariotness — unless one is a Platonist, that is!

    Perhaps a mathematical Platonist could answer this for me. What is it about mathematical entities that make them different from chariots in terms of Platonism? Or, if it’s not something different about the entities, how do the justifications for Platonism with respect to mathematical entities not apply to things like chariots?

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  30. Massimo

    “Perhaps. I tend to simply embrace the idea that there are true logical contradictions and no be too bothered by them. I think of them as the logical equivalent of singularities in math. They are there, they are interesting, and there is no sensible way in which they need to be “resolved.”

    To me this is why I think the Catuskoti is so interesting. We see logical contradictions which can be compared to singularities in math. These singularities in math/physics also seem to play a role in phase transitions, and the concept of emergence which I learned about from a series Massimo posted in ‘rationally speaking’. I understand why you have revulsion when eastern ‘mystical’ concepts are retro-fitted to modern discoveries like quantum mechanics. Yet I also think we should not throw away what may be useful insights ( like the discarding of the excluded middle ) due to some unnecessary baggage. There are others who seem to see link to modern applications as this post suggests:

    http://www.science20.com/greatest_science_mysteries/buddha_topoi_and_quantum_gravity-93336

    How do we know if a contradiction that applies to the physical world is a ‘true contradiction’, or an indication of our limited access to the world at this time, or perhaps a limit to what we can ever know?

    In the past what we thought were ‘true contradictions’ help point the way to new understandings as the contradictions were resolved. I think therefore a useful aspect of a logic that allows for contradiction is that it keeps us grounded in humility respecting the utility of uncertainty and doubt and the limitations of knowledge.

    Another example I think is the past 2 posts. Most commenters seemed to agree that language is a blunt instrument with a subjective interpretation of meaning interfering with perfect communication. This doesn’t mean we need to go full-monty into post-modern relativism, and discount the fact that we can and do communicate effectively ( especially with regard to trivialities).

    I think all attempts to better understand the world are limited be they through science, math, philosophy, introspection, meditation…. etc. In my view if a logic can be applied that reminds us our uncertainty while at the same time pointing our curiosity in a productive direction that would be ideal. I am not a logician so I cannot infer whether Graham Priest has succeeded in accomplishing this goal, but I do think it is ground worth exploring. I guess it is just my intuition.

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  31. Massimo,
    “’The first mistake is assuming there is only one Buddhism.’
    Neither I nor Graham make that mistake.”

    I misread, I apologize. But both you and Dr. Priest do seem to think that Buddhist thought – just as such – inevitably leads to some sort of mysticism (which Dr. Priest seems willing to live with and you’re not, understandably), and I just don’t agree.

    “Besides, one doesn’t need to take a chariot apart to show that there is no such thing as chariotness — unless one is a Platonist, that is!”

    Plato would want to show that the essence of the thing was not identical to the thing; Nagarjuna wants to show that there is no essence.
    Two notes need to be made here. First, we have been taking Nagarjuna out of his historical context. He is in argument with those for whom the *essential* reality of things (in something like the Platonic or neo-Platonic sense) could be clarified conceptually through language. (To put it in crude contemporary terms, ‘we know what a crocodile is, we know what a duck is; evolution? you can’t get there from here.’ This elides many years of debate from many different positions, and I doubt Creationists could recognize themselves as essentialist/ metaphysical Idealists. But this is a thumbnail sketch of the dangers of such thinking.)
    Secondly, Nagarjuna is deploying the chariot example as a metaphor. Certainly he’s not simply talking about a chariot, but rather the ideas we have concerning it. Indeed, the chariot example leads into a destruction of the idea of the independently existing consciousness – the Self. (The Self is presumed to be the driver of the ‘chariot’ – the chariot as trope for our bodies, our sensorum, our cognitions, our ideas. But if the ‘chariot’ can be taken apart – if we eliminate body, sensorum, cognition, ideas – what is the driver driving? Nothing. So where is the driver? Nowhere.) Nagarjuna’s is a radical constructionist understanding of consciousness and of knowledge. ‘Well, why doesn’t he come out and say that?’ Effectively he does, but 1800 years ago in india, the metaphor helped to make the point.

    “Would you be able to apply the same reasoning to an elementary particle, which by definition has no further components?”

    Yes, because this is clearly an epistemological reasoning, not a claim on physical entities. I suggested that Nagarjuna could be accused of equivocating; now I will make that accusation myself, he is equivocating. He is making no claim on existence, but on the reified concepts through which we claim to know existence. When he seems to be talking about things, he’s talking about ideas. Nagarjuna would only find his way back to things by way of conventional practice.

    “Since there is no reason to think that there is such a thing as the cycle of birth and death (…).”

    Samsara as a conceptual whole is empty, but we still come to terms with it. We are born, we live, we die. Our parents went through that before us, our children go through it after us. For me, that IS the cycle of birth and death, it’s not anything mystical. We do conceptualize it, in order to talk about it, in order to deal with it. But could we have no conception of it at all, it would still happen.
    Nagarjuna of course thinks that the cycle continues through re-incarnation; but I don’t have to follow him that far to find some use in what he has to say.

    “‘But this doesn’t necessitate either a sweeping rejection of, or an obscuring promotion of, his reasoning and the logic that later developed out of it.’
    At the very least it necessitates a hard critical look at it, I would say.”

    Absolutely; that’s precisely what I’m asking for.
    If I sounded in anyway dismissive of Dr. Priest’s paper or your response to it, I certainly apologize, that wasn’t intended. But the fact is, the effort to grasp philosophies from cultures we have not been born into is frought with all kinds of dangers, some obvious, others not. Since Nagarjuna’s thought needs considerable explanation (which I have failed to provide adequately), I frankly would have preferred that this discussion could have occurred without bringing him into it.
    Dr. Priest’s effort to use catuskoti in Western logics, while it could use more rigorous demonstration, is attractive. But the rigors of Buddhist logic are primarily concerned with promoting action – decision making in highly complex ethical situations involving a suffering but always greedy self-absorbed mammal in a world filled with other suffering greedy self-absorbed mammals (where the decision made is understood to be an action taken).
    (That suggests that the usefulness we can find for Buddhist logics in the West would be found in the domains of ethics, epistemology, psychology, perhaps ontology. I really don’t see them deployable to any great extent in math or science.)
    I don’t remember who it was, but a Zen master was asked by a student to clarify a paradoxical koan, and the master simply said, “go and wash the dishes.” The student complained that there were no dishes to wash, to which the master responded, “well, go and wash those dishes.” The master was not being cryptic; he was really telling the student, ‘go and find something to do (even if that’s only meditating on what ‘no-dishes’ might be).’ And that is a reasonable response to seemingly unresolvable metaphysical dilemmas. We know we were born, we know we will die. Between those two certainties is an awful lot of time to spend doing things. We can do things to cause pain, we can do things that do not cause pain, we can do things that reduce pain. That’s all.

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  32. I doubt there’s a mathematical or logical proof, but it seems to me that any contradiction can be removed by inventing a distinction. Therefore I suppose that any contradictions in Buddhist philosophy can be resolved if anyone gets hired to do the research.

    In the discussion of mysticism and the ineffable, it is pointed out that if you say something is ineffable, you have said something about about it and therefore it must be effable, and this is a logical contradiction. I suppose this is true if you ignore the content of the propositions, which is what logic does. The thing is, ignoring the content is what creates the paradox. Saying something is ineffable is not really saying something, but saying what is not. In this case I don’t think the ineffable is useful precisely because it’s intrinsically ambiguous. Perhaps a better example would be a proposition about a heap of sand? If we want to reason correctly, we can’t rely on logic to demonstrate the valid conclusions, we have to pay attention to the content of the propositions because we don’t always know what a heap is.

    Or to put it another way, an Objectivist might say A is A assuming that there is always a meaningful “A.” If a proposition about the essence of a particular or the noumenon or words is logically valid, then it is a meaningful contribution to argument, regardless of how essence or noumenon or words are defined. To rephrase, there must be sets instead of sorting, therefore Russell’s paradox is real.The principle of non-contradiction says that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time. It cannot be true that an object is there at a given instant and that it is moving. The law of the excluded middle says that a proposition is either true or false. Occam’s razor and Hanlon’s razor and Clarke’s third law are either true or false. It is not immediately obvious to me that these fundamental laws of thought lead immediately to reasonable conclusions.

    Or to put it yet another way, is there really a close relationship between logic and reason? Personally the only use I’ve ever found is reframing claims in the contrapositive form. Even there, the use is largely to prevent inadvertently lapsing into tendentious rhetoric. (Never convinces anyone by the way, although there’s never been a rebuttal either.) Is it really useful to adhere to a scholium that says a proposition such as “Money can’t buy happiness but poverty can always buy misery” is nonsense?

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  33. Hi Asher,

    Perhaps a mathematical Platonist could answer this for me. What is it about mathematical entities that make them different from chariots in terms of Platonism? Or, if it’s not something different about the entities, how do the justifications for Platonism with respect to mathematical entities not apply to things like chariots?

    Are you talking about the ideal chariot (i.e. the essence of chariotness), or are you talking about an actual physical chariot?

    Classical Platonism held there was such a thing as an ideal chariot, all chariots being pale reflections of this. I don’t, because I don’t think a chariot is a well defined concept — there are too many ways of building what people might call a chariot and there are borderline cases which are hard to decide. The only really precisely defined concepts are mathematical concepts. If you can invent a sufficiently precise technical definition of a chariot, then that definition may constitute a mathematical concept and if so the object it describes exists. I just don’t think that it would really capture what most people think of as the essence of chariotness.

    Actual chariots are very different from mathematical objects. They are assemblages of particles which only happen to be called chariots by people. Such objects are vulnerable to the Ship of Theseus paradox and other problems which call into question whether they can be said to exist as unified wholes. I don’t have a problem with describing such composite objects as really existing, but they exist in a vague, fuzzy sort of way whereas on Platonism mathematical objects really do exist. Fundamental physical entities such as electrons may be much more definite (Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle notwithstanding!) and may exist in the same way as mathematical objects. Indeed, it is my view that they *are* mathematical objects.

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  34. I had to come up here to reply to your reply to me, there was no way to reply there.
    Anyway, the issue that what we know is relationships, rather than things, fits well into the Madhyamika tradition that developed elaborating Nagarjuna’s reasoning; however Nagarjuna himself seems to me to be opposed to any metaphysics, and himself practices metaphysics only to devalue it.

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  35. DM

    The conception Higgs field emerged from math before experimental confirmation. My understanding is that being a scalar field, it has no direction and exists at all (dimensionless?) points throughout the universe. Having a spin of zero it maintains symmetry (looks the same?) everywhere, thus it is invisible. I am guessing you would count it as a fundamental mathematical ‘object’. Do you see it’s existence as an ‘object’ more definite (less fuzzy) than a chair? Forgive me If I have misrepresented the physics as this is my current understanding. Just looking for your interpretation.

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  36. Are you talking about the ideal chariot (i.e. the essence of chariotness), or are you talking about an actual physical chariot?

    Sorry – I meant it in the way Massimo did. Basically a Platonic form.

    I don’t, because I don’t think a chariot is a well defined concept — there are too many ways of building what people might call a chariot and there are borderline cases which are hard to decide.

    I’m still a little unclear. If “existing” is a matter of whether the concept is well-defined or not, are you then saying that it’s the mathematical *concept* that exists in a separate way or are you saying that there’s a separate mathematical entity that isn’t contingent on our concept of it?

    If it’s the latter, then what I’m trying to grasp is: in what way does being well-defined imbue something with existence?

    Also, I’m not understanding how the Ship of Theseus would apply to the “universal” chariot, since the universal object itself doesn’t have any parts to be changed.

    I don’t have a problem with describing such composite objects as really existing, but they exist in a vague, fuzzy sort of way whereas on Platonism mathematical objects really do exist.

    What I’m not getting an idea of is: what *kind* of existence do these things have in your view? Is there a sense in which mathematical entities exist in the same, everyday way as physical objects do? Or is it something different? And does the “universal” mathematical object – like say, the number 124857 – have some causal connection to instances of the number 124857 in our concepts, or on computers or a piece of paper? And if so, how does that causal process work?

    One other thing too. Would you say that your mathematical Platonism is different than most other mathematical Platonists’, or pretty much the same?

    Sorry for all the questions. I’m working on a piece that mentions universals, and though Platonism itself doesn’t confuse me, the idea of a sort of “selective” Platonism is giving me trouble.

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  37. Great article. I remember reading the article at Aeon a while back, and it seems to me that the jump to dialetheism is a bit premature. Some of the criticisms that you can find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetheism#Criticisms, and I’ve read that there are other avenues that seem much more palatable than even considering paraconsistent logics (which one can accept as useful for things like computer programs, where errors can lead to a critical failure and should thus be avoided, without actually believing in true contradictions). A cursory overview of these alternatives can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraconsistent_logic#Alternatives.

    I find the alternatives above much more acceptable than actually believing that true contradictions exist. It just doesn’t seem to make sense to me at all. Things like the Liar Paradox have already been resolved by heirarchies (think Tarski’s resolution). Even though some maintain that these are too “restrictive,” thats no problem if one simply accepts that the natural languages we use are inconsistent but still useful. This doesn’t really mean that true contradictions exist in reality, especially when we find that reality seems to be excellently described in the formal language of mathematics (my Platonism showing up a bit here).

    I know you mention singularities in mathematics Massimo, but wouldn’t you agree that the fact that a singularity exists in some mathematical formulation doesn’t actually represent a contradiction, but an interesting if hard to physically picture feature of the mathematical structure itself?

    I might be going out on a limb here, but I honestly believe that things like the Law of Non-Contradiction might actually say something fundamental about the nature of existence (and I mean any kind of existence). For something to exist, especially in relation to others, is to maintain that it is a part of a consistent whole. Some might maintain that this is a trivial statement, but I think its pretty profound. I know there are many non-classical logics, but there are also many logicians who subscribe to some form of logical monism. The proliferation of logics doesn’t necessarily mean there isn’t one that could be considered fundamental with regard to statements about physical reality, or indeed any type of reality possible.

    Any thoughts?

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  38. Massimo,
    I reread your article to find where I had misread your position as holding there is only one Buddhism.
    It is the paragraph “This, by the way, isn’t an West-East thing at all.” I think I read this paragraph lightly, because I could see mentions of Heidegger, Wittgenstein, and Derrida, and I didn’t really want to go there. Re-reading it I did grasp its last sentence: “And on the other side of the geographical divide we have the vibrant tradition of Indian logic and epistemology [9] which certainly counts as philosophy, and which paralleled many of the developments of the Western tradition, arriving at several of the same conclusions.” And I went to the sources referenced, the SEP entry on Indian logic by Gillon, and the entry on Indian epistemology by Phillips. But now I’m a little confused. Some of the epistemologists Phillips discusses are Buddhist; but the majority of logicians Gillon discusses are Buddhist, especially those primarily responsible for grounding Indian syllogistics.
    So then when I read your sentence: “[s]till, this points to a major disanalogy between Western (and Indian!) logic and Buddhism as presented by Graham’s attempt to interweave them,” as this is informed by Gillon’s article, cannot this be read as ‘still, this points to a major disanalogy between Western (and Buddhist!) logic and Buddhism’? (But of course, the turn here is “Graham’s attempt to interweave them” – in his attept has he accidently wedged between them?)
    Can there be a disanalogy between Buddhist logic and Buddhism? The answer should be yes, since we all know Western logic survived the theological torture the Catholic Church put it through. The trouble is, the Indian Buddhists developed their syllogistics partly to win arguments with other Buddhists, of course, but also with Hindus and other non-Buddhist sects, so they obviously thought that the reasoning was crucial to their ideological projects. And this seems borne out by the quote I used in my first response, that ‘right knowledge is knowledge not contradicted by experience,’ given that ‘right knowledge’ is an imperative of the Eightfold Path. That’s a problem I need to think about more.
    Can there really be a “Buddhist” logic? The catuskoti structure presents some interesting problems, but is that because of how it is used in Buddhism, or simply because it is a structure of a possible logic? Can any logic truly ground, by necessity, a given categorized position, e.g., an ideology, or a particular philosophy? Or do we assume such a position and then develop a logic we think will verify it?
    In a recorded conversation between you, Dan Dennett, and Lawrence Krauss, when you remarked of Krauss’ ethical position that it was Consequentialist, Krauss replied, derisively, “yeah, yeah, I know all about the labels!” (That’s probably not verbatim, but it captures his response.) Obviously Dr. Krauss doesn’t care to have his ethics labeled (although he’s happy with his work labeled ‘cosmology’). Perhaps there’s something about labels that overdetermines our responses to them.
    Well, more questions than comment this time.

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  39. Hi Massimo,

    Coincidentally enough I’m currently reading Priest’s *Beyond the Limits of Thought* for a graduate course-cum-reading group. There is a rather impressive schematic formalization of what he calls the Inclosure Schema, which goes something like so (in mostly plain English):

    Let Ω = the set of all φ things, and where Ω satisfies some property ψ. If x is a subset of Ω and x also satisfies ψ, then some function δ applied to x takes it out of x and into Ω. So x is not in the set x (the condition of Transcendence), but x is in Ω (the condition of Closure).

    If we apply δ to Ω (x = Ω) then the entire set Ω is both in and out of Ω — that is, it simultaneously satisfies both Transcendence and Closure conditions. Priest takes this to be a true contradiction (so far I’m at least provisionally convinced, but it’s still early going).

    The thesis of the book is that this rough pattern recurs throughout the Western tradition,* from the Presocratics right on through modern set theory and into Wittgenstein, Quine, Davidson, etc. There is always some limit to what can be expressed, cognized, conceived, etc., and this limit is both part of the set, e.g., capable of being expressed (cognized, etc.), *and* not part of the set.

    * Nagarjuna is given a treatment in a chapter added to the second edition, at the end of the book, which I haven’t gotten to yet so I can offer no comments.

    I actually shared your criticism regarding this point:

    “I don’t think there is any real contradiction at play here. Let me take the case of Kant in particular, since it is by far the least obscurely put. A reasonable retelling of the story, I suspect, is that Kant identified an epistemically inaccessible zone, one the content of which we cannot know. But we can observe the contours of such zone, the epistemic perimeter, if you will, from the outside. Imagine a physical analogy: you use Google map and find out that a certain location on it, say Dick Cheney’s house, is missing from it. There is a large blacked out area around it, to which you have no access. There is no contradiction in a) acknowledging that you can’t say anything about what is inside that geographical black hole while b) you can say something about it, for instance that it exists, and that it has a certain perimeter.”

    However on further reading, *I think* that Priest’s reply will be something like the following. If the blacked-out zone around Cheney’s house is *truly* inaccessible epistemically (or conceptually, or…), then even knowing some property of it — that ‘it is a large blacked-out area’ — is to know something of it. To parse that in terms of the Inclosure Schema, the property ‘is a large blacked-out area’ satisfies Transcendence as it doesn’t belong to the set ‘things we know about Cheney’s house’. After all, we can’t actually get at any of the things we’d associate with things known about Cheney’s house. But this also satisfies Closure, being a claim to knowledge of Cheney’s house — namely, that it ‘is a large blacked-out area’, and thereby belongs to the set of ‘things we know about Cheney’s house’. That’s how Priest locates the contradiction in these cases (assuming of course that I haven’t mischaracterized the position).

    Whether this is actually a genuine *contradiction* I leave to those more comfortable with formal logic and set theory than I (which will be most anyone), but I do appreciate the line of inquiry as a philosophical exercise.

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  40. Massimo, the post is very interesting.

    You present how in (a/the?) Buddhist tradition “[catuskoti] insists that there are four possibilities regarding any statement: it might be true (and true only), false (and false only), both true and false, or neither true nor false”, and then you add in the idea of ineffability.

    The latter has for long in essence been a key part of the Quaker tradition to which I belong, based in the idea that there may be some kind of transcendent underlying reality that cannot adequately be described in language. Indeed the idea is that any attempt to capture any such reality in language is bound to fail, as it will inevitably be as misleading in some aspects as it is helpful in others, both because of the limitations of language, and because of the limitations of our senses, which will only be able to interact with partial aspects of such a reality. The attempt to capture it in words will be limited in what it can achieve. This is for example emphasized by the great Quaker astrophysicist Arthur Stanley Eddington in his Gifford lectures On The Nature of the Physical World (available at http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/Physworld.pdf).

    A model of this situation was given Edwin Abbott in his novel Flatland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland), where 2-dimensional entities cannot imagine what a third dimension is like. Of course currently string theory/M theory presents a somewhat similar view of physical reality. But that is a model of just of physical aspects of reality – in mystical traditions, it would be a moot point as to how one would categorise other kinds or dimensions or aspects of existence that are by their nature hidden from direct perception by our senses.

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  41. Hi Seth,

    My instinct was to say that tt depends on whether the current understanding of the Higgs field is the final word on it. However, the current understanding of the Higgs field is itself a mathematical object, even if it is only an approximation to how the Higgs field actually works. This means it exists. It is absolutely precisely defined, so it is less fuzzy than a chair.

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  42. Hi Asher,

    it’s the mathematical *concept* that exists in a separate way or are you saying that there’s a separate mathematical entity that isn’t contingent on our concept of it

    Perhaps the word ‘concept’ is tricky. Some concepts are mathematical objects and some are vague, fuzzy things that are only approximately communicated by speech (as Theo Wit argued in the previous essays on this webzine). I do not usually distinguish between concepts of mathematical objects and mathematical objects themselves. In any case I hold mathematical objects to exist independently of conceivers.

    If it’s the latter, then what I’m trying to grasp is: in what way does being well-defined imbue something with existence

    Perhaps this question might be answered by exploring why I don’t think ‘chariot’ is such a concept.

    ‘Chariot’ is a concept which is not a mathematical object and cannot really be said to exist independently of minds because it can only really be defined in relation to what humans tend to classify as chariots or not. A definition such as the following is actually the most precise:

    Chariot: noun, An object which is considered to be a chariot by an element of the set of ‘human beings familiar with ancient modes of transport’.

    Of course this definition isn’t much use, because you need to define other fuzzy concepts such as ‘human being’, ‘ancient’, ‘transport’ etc. Really you’d have to model the whole world to have a “precise” definition of any of these, and even then it wouldn’t be that precise because of borderline cases. At best you’d have a definition of some kind of chariotness spectrum.

    On the other hand, the number two can be defined without modelling the whole world because its definition is unambiguous. There is no spectrum of twoness. There is no vagueness. When I say “2” you understand me perfectly, so you don’t need to wonder “What does DM mean by ‘2’?”. Knowledge of my particular mind is not needed to understand me.

    Another way to put it is that if you can’t define something entirely unambiguously, then it’s not clear of what we are supposed to assert or deny existence.

    But to clarify one point: when I say something must be well-defined to exist, I do not mean that it must actually have been defined at some point by a human. I mean that all possible well-defined concepts exist, including those that never will be actually defined by a human or those that cannot be well-defined in practice because it would need more atoms to represent them than exist in the solar system.

    Also, I’m not understanding how the Ship of Theseus would apply to the “universal” chariot, since the universal object itself doesn’t have any parts to be changed.

    This point was about physical chariots.

    Is there a sense in which mathematical entities exist in the same, everyday way as physical objects do?

    Certainly not. This is a misinterpretation of Platonism.

    (Although, ultimately I’m a mathematical monist. I think the universe itself is a mathematical object so physical objects are just substructures of a mathematical object and so ultimately they do exist in the same way. But this goes beyond Platonism into territory very far beyond the mainstream).

    And does the “universal” mathematical object – like say, the number 124857 – have some causal connection to instances of the number 124857 in our concepts, or on computers or a piece of paper?

    I wouldn’t say causal. Not in the usual sense at least. But there is something of an isomorphism there. The physical instances are inevitably led to reflect something about abstract mathematics, but abstract objects don’t causally intervene to make this happen. If there exists a solution to an equation, two mathematicians will inevitably independently find that same solution, but they are not caused to do so by the intervention of the solution.

    Insofar as mathematical objects can be said to cause things, it is because their instantiations can cause things. For example, when a mathematician ponders a mathematical object, part of her mind (or brain) is arranged so as to represent that object, and this can then have a causal effect on other parts of her mind and lead to bodily action. The whole thing is bootstrapped by the fact that we have evolved to have some mathematical objects (e.g. the axioms of logic) somewhat hardwired into our minds by evolution, and these then entail other mathematical objects and so on. Where did those come from? Well I suppose ultimately you’d have to regress back to the laws of physics of the universe which are mathematical objects (or instantiations of mathematical objects).

    One other thing too. Would you say that your mathematical Platonism is different than most other mathematical Platonists’, or pretty much the same?

    I am a plenitudinous/full-blooded Platonist which I gather is a minority position. This breed of Platonism holds that all well-defined consistent mathematical systems exist, whereas more traditional Platonism would say that there is one real mathematical system within which all mathematical obejcts exist. So, for me, the axiom of choice is both false and true at the same time. It’s true in one system and false in another, and both systems exist.

    Another point is that I don’t like to talk of a Platonic realm with its imagery of cubes and spheres and quadratic equations floating around in some kind of void. I’m not sure how common this is among actual Platonists (as opposed to their detractors) but in any case I think it is silly and I think it misrepresents the whole idea as something mystical, which it is not. It’s just an attitude regarding how broadly we ought to use the language of existence — although it is not entirely without implications (e.g. it is required for the MUH and arguably for computationalism).

    Apart from that I don’t think my Platonism is that different from the mainstream.

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  43. Gregory,

    “After all, insofar as logically valid reasoning must be truth-preserving, logic must tell us something about truth. It mustn’t tell us which sentences are true; but it must tell us what it takes for a sentence to be true. It mustn’t tell us what are the truth-makers for a sentence; but it must tell us what the truth-makers for a sentence must be like.”

    Nothing in that quote contradicts what I said about the goal of logic. Indeed, it is a rephrasing of my exact position.

    “to do so he needs first to go from buddhism to logic, and then go from logic to metaphysics, and you deny that this last step could be done.”

    Not exactly. I am denying two things: a) that Graham succeeds in showing that Buddhism is compatible with logic (which was his main goal); and b) that Buddhist metaphysics actually describes reality.

    C,

    “All he does is say is that “the truth value of P” should be treated as a relation rather than a function. But that’s just a mathematical jargon-y way of saying that a proposition can have multiple (seemingly incompatible) truth-values. Okay…but that’s precisely the part that many people suspect of being incoherent!”

    Precisely, nicely put!

    “Medieval scholastic philosophy could probably be considered very non-mystical, since it was very much grounded in logic, reason, argumentation, dialectic, etc. (doesn’t mean they were right about anything in particular.) They *also* believed in things that might be considered mystical (meditation, divine revelation, etc.), but they were keen on distinguishing what was known from “natural reason” and what wasn’t.”

    Again, yup!

    Thomas,

    “I want to make it clear that I did *not* say you had misrepresented Priest’s points. I said you were making demands of them that *I* don’t see as the objective of his article”

    That’s fine, but Graham himself didn’t have that reaction. He seems to think that I did engage his points, though of course he disagrees with my position.

    victor,

    “The concept of division by zero was ineffable”

    I’m not sure it was. Some people may have thought of it as nonsensical, but that’s not the same as ineffable.

    “I think what Graham is driving at is the ability of the human brain to contemplate and even jump certain gaps”

    That sounds right, but there are two huge caveats: first, because of the admitted (by Graham) obscurity of Buddhism writings, it is actually hard to make the case that Buddhists have, indeed, made those jumps; second, this brings up the distinction between the context of discovery and the context of justification: we can have a good, possibly correct intuition about X. But we won’t have knowledge of X until we have managed to verify that intuition, logically and/or empirically.

    Seth,

    “Yet I also think we should not throw away what may be useful insights ( like the discarding of the excluded middle ) due to some unnecessary baggage.”

    Sure, but I’m not convinced that the insights of Buddhism have been useful in that sense. For one thing, they haven’t influenced the development of logic and science, as Graham himself admits when he says that all the (alleged) parallels were achieved despite no cross-pollination between Western logic and Buddhist traditions.

    “How do we know if a contradiction that applies to the physical world is a ‘true contradiction’, or an indication of our limited access to the world at this time”

    I think that talk of contradictions in the physical world is a category mistake: contradictions can be found in logic, not in nature.

    “I think all attempts to better understand the world are limited be they through science, math, philosophy, introspection, meditation”

    No argument there. But the proof is in the pudding, as they say, and I don’t think meditation has yielded any new understanding of the world. It may have other effects, but it doesn’t generate knowledge.

    ej,

    thanks for your clarifications about Nagarjuna, but I’m not convinced that my objection to the chariot example doesn’t stand. And when you say:

    “the chariot example leads into a destruction of the idea of the independently existing consciousness – the Self”

    I’m even less convinced, in part because I’m not sure what you mean by “independent” (of what?) and in part because I’ve become increasingly impatient with what I call the “it’s only an illusion crowd,” people who claim that a number of human mental phenomena, especially consciousness, are illusions.

    “”Would you be able to apply the same reasoning to an elementary particle, which by definition has no further components?” Yes, because this is clearly an epistemological reasoning, not a claim on physical entities.”

    That doesn’t seem to follow. Elementary particles are, well, elementary (setting aside caveats about what the bottom level of reality actually is according to modern physics), so looking at their “parts” to show they have no essence is strange, given that there are no parts to look at. And why is this not a claim about physical entities (or phenomena)? I think consciousness is a physical phenomenon, for instance.

    “I suggested that Nagarjuna could be accused of equivocating; now I will make that accusation myself, he is equivocating.”

    You see why I’m a bit skeptical of re-interpreting in modern fashion what ancient and very much unclear Buddhist texts actually meant to convey?

    “Samsara as a conceptual whole is empty, but we still come to terms with it. We are born, we live, we die. Our parents went through that before us, our children go through it after us. For me, that IS the cycle of birth and death, it’s not anything mystical.”

    No, that’s not a cycle, and I seriously doubt that’s what it’s meant in the original. What you describe is a trivial observation about the human condition, not a mystical (or any other kind of) insight into the nature of things.

    “Nagarjuna of course thinks that the cycle continues through re-incarnation; but I don’t have to follow him that far to find some use in what he has to say.”

    That, I think, is questionable. You seem to want to pick and choose, which is a fine tradition in philosophy, but certain choices have higher costs than others, and beyond a certain point the original insight is lost or even negated.

    “the rigors of Buddhist logic are primarily concerned with promoting action – decision making in highly complex ethical situations involving a suffering but always greedy self-absorbed mammal in a world filled with other suffering”

    Okay, but again that seems to me to mix a number of things that is better to keep distinct. For instance, logic has nothing whatsoever to do with ethics, except for the minimum requirement that whatever ethical system we decide to adopt better be internally consistent. But logic dictates no particular ethics.

    “But of course, the turn here is “Graham’s attempt to interweave them” – in his attept has he accidently wedged between them?”

    Yes, that would be my response. That said, in the article I should have used the term “Buddhisms,” or “different strands of Buddhism thought.” But I think a charitable reading of that section, especially the SEP references to Indian logic, make it clear that that’s what I meant.

    “this seems borne out by the quote I used in my first response, that ‘right knowledge is knowledge not contradicted by experience,’ given that ‘right knowledge’ is an imperative of the Eightfold Path.”

    It really depends crucially what one means by “experience.” All sorts of notions from modern science blatantly contradict everyday experience. Could this be a problem for the Eightfold Path?

    “Can any logic truly ground, by necessity, a given categorized position, e.g., an ideology, or a particular philosophy?”

    No, I don’t think so. I would say that logic ought to *constrain* any given philosophy (meaning that such philosophy should be logically consistent), but logic by itself clearly underdetermines the number of possible philosophies, because there are many philosophical systems that are equally logically coherent.

    “Obviously Dr. Krauss doesn’t care to have his ethics labeled (although he’s happy with his work labeled ‘cosmology’). Perhaps there’s something about labels that overdetermines our responses to them.”

    Perhaps. But I suspect that was simply a rhetorical move on his part to get out of trouble. I’m pretty sure he is very careful in applying the correct “labels” (i.e., terms) in his own field of cosmology.

    Steven,

    “it seems to me that any contradiction can be removed by inventing a distinction. Therefore I suppose that any contradictions in Buddhist philosophy can be resolved if anyone gets hired to do the research.”

    Well, that’s one position. Or it could be, as I suspect, that there are true logical contradictions (just like there are singularities in math) and that’s the end of the game.

    “it is pointed out that if you say something is ineffable, you have said something about about it and therefore it must be effable, and this is a logical contradiction.”

    But as I wrote in the essay, I think that’s yet another category mistake: I can be faced by a black box that I cannot open and about whose content I can say nothing at all. But I can still say that I am faced by a black box that I cannot open and about whose content I can say nothing at all. There is no contradiction at all between the two sentences.

    pete,

    “I remember reading the article at Aeon a while back, and it seems to me that the jump to dialethism is a bit premature.”

    Indeed. I’m fascinated by dialethism, but I don’t buy into it.

    “wouldn’t you agree that the fact that a singularity exists in some mathematical formulation doesn’t actually represent a contradiction, but an interesting if hard to physically picture feature of the mathematical structure itself?”

    Singularities may or may not represent interesting features of the physical world (if that’s what you mean), but they certainly are interesting *mathematical* features. I brought them up simply as an analogy to contradictions, as annoying objects that (respectively) many mathematicians (and physicists!) and logicians would wish to go away.

    “The proliferation of logics doesn’t necessarily mean there isn’t one that could be considered fundamental with regard to statements about physical reality, or indeed any type of reality possible.”

    Interesting thought. I don’t know. My hunch is that yes, various logics may turn out to be special cases of a more fundamental system (we definitely know this to be the case for a number of subsets of modal logic). Similar to how, say, Euclidean geometry can be considered a special case of a more general theory of geometry. But now we’ve definitely reached the limits of my understanding of both logic and geometry…

    logos,

    “*I think* that Priest’s reply will be something like the following. If the blacked-out zone around Cheney’s house is *truly* inaccessible epistemically (or conceptually, or…), then even knowing some property of it”

    Yes, that may be his reply, but I think it is a mistaken one, for the reasons I summarized above in this particular set of responses. And if that doesn’t fit Graham’s Inclosure Schema I’m going to be dollar to donut that there is something wrong with the Schema…

    gfrellis,

    thanks for your comments, but it sounds to me like the concept of ineffability simply devolves into the simple statement that there are epistemic limits to human knowledge, something I think no philosopher or logician would deny, but that doesn’t need a special label, nor does it carry any particular mystical consequences.

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